Hello! Thank you so much again for taking the time to speak with me. So this is for a class that's about links– it's part art class part discussion about the web, information and how those are communicated through its unique medium. But first, would you like to introduce yourself a little bit?

     "Instead of being like a designer that does art, I feel like I'm more of an artist that ended up doing design. I grew up as an art kid, but I also grew up in SF, so I was very much plugged into CS and tech very early on. I went to a tech-stem oriented high school, and didn't like it. I think design has sort of been the intermediary, having some visual and technical side. I definitely think about the whole field of things you can do within that intersection: there's UI/UX , digital branding, modeling, all that stuff. So right now UX is where I am. I don't know if this is where I'll be in a year or two, but where I am right now. In design my priority is creator tools; I like making things for artists because that's the community of people that I can best serve and represent."

I'm curious about your helping designers, are you making tools or programs similar to Photoshop or Illustrator?

     "Yes, I'm working for Brown's human computer interaction . We're making this new digital illustration/animation tool, and I do UX studies for that, dipping my toes into research and that field. I do code, but most of my code is front end, like I did not build the back end of our project. Also, even though I'm concentrating on CS, I don't adore it. I don't plan on doing computers as a software engineer. I like CS more as a tool; it's useful to know for sure. My research is just like helping implement interface changes, how to make the website more usable, and conducting user studies. I observe what they're doing. I ask them qualitative and quantitative questions."

I definitely have a lot of respect for anyone that can do both front-end and UI/UX design simultaneously. I think nowadays UX is a major that you can spend your whole time doing, completely isolated from front end work. It seems like you're what they call an industry unicorn!

"I don't feel like I'm good enough yet to call myself a unicorn , but that is the dream."

What do you think specifically when you're doing UI/UX what your thought process is, especially how you decide to communicate information specifically in this medium?

     "There's a very big distinction between UX and any other type of design because it's not enough to have things look nice. It's not the aesthetics at all, which is kind of a shock because I feel like I see myself as an artist first. I care very much about colors, layout, all that stuff. But for UX, that comes at the very end. Instead, its about how usable something is, how navigable it is. Coming from a visual background, my intuition is: "It's pretty, and it's fine." No, it's not when it comes to UX. It's something that is based on very concrete aspects, either data or feedback that you get. It's scientific. It's quantifiable: what website version is better? Which one gets more clicks? Which button is the easiest for people to reach this link?"

How do you personally feel about that rigidity? Does it bind you in what you can do?

     "In some ways it is inhibitory. I think to myself why can't I just make something look pretty? Why do I have to use this font that's not the coolest in order to make this text readable? There's little moments you have to give up aesthetic for usability. But there's a flip side: the gratification of making a decision for the sake of someone else. It brings new meaning and purpose. For me, illustrating a piece for personal enjoyment is purely for myself. But with UX, I'm able to do something for a greater community, addressing a need. In that way, there's really not much to complain about."

How do you think designing for the web differs from designing in print mediums in a strictly functional manner?

     "Where do people's eyes usually land when first opening up a web page? That is something that is something very human-constructed that we now have to take into consideration. People don't like clicking, you can't click on a static sheet of paper. In order to display or communicate information on a website, there is a whole interaction aspect that is not there in the physical world. Overtime, people have developed habits and adopted certain schemes when they enter a website. As opposed to just reading a pamphlet, If you don't meet that schema-create a website that is more "challenging"- they will just leave."

Do you feel like focusing on the interaction of the user to the site is usually futhered to a positive or negative end?

     "I feel like I have a very fragmented judgment of UX as a whole because of how companies define success, that you're able to make a person do what you want them to do on that website. Usually, that means probably like buying a product, or subscribing to a service. Essentially to accomplish something to further a business end instead of prioritizing wellness of the user.What it means to be a good UX designer is to make them addicted to what you've made. And I think that is the essential purpose of UX designers. That's why facebook is so addicting: because a UX designer went in and decided every tap, every click. Every interaction you have is thought through and able to make it as smooth as possible for you so you stay stuck to your phone. I think I've always had very strange, moral qualms against that."

What are some more specific examples of how design facilitates behavior?

     "In the case of Tik Tok, in addition to the algorithm being exceptional in how accurate it is, its endless scroll format is probably the prime example that has exacerbated use on many platforms in the past few years. With things being endless, there is literally no end to what you can see and get sucked into. There's a very thin line between making things easy and pleasant to use and then getting them hooked on it."

Has there ever been a case where you've deliberately designed a website that is less smoother?

     "Sometimes you make functions that are a bit more difficult to find because you want the user to complete something first before doing it. I was making this app where you can see a bunch of anonymous comments, but in order to see the identity of who posted it, you'd have to do an extra step, like swiping up, or press it. The point of that was to make sure that in order to find the post's identity, you need to be interested enough in their response and in what they posted in order to see who posted it, instead of it being readily available to you. You have to go that extra step and you have to really want to engage with it to find out."

That's very enlightening. It makes me think of the example of how unsubscribing from amazon prime is incredibly difficult. It's hidden behind many windows, and the link to unsubscribe is purposefully colored in gray to blend in with the text. The process seems to counter what you've described to be good, smooth UX design. Or perhaps, this is a case of effective UX design.

From my perception, it seems so scientific in its approach that much of it has been standardized. How do you feel about the future progression of UI/UX then?

     

"Actually, I feel like there's lots of ways it is changing because the platform that you're interacting with things is changing. The biggest change is the new switch to VR, the metaverse, and the rise of virtual reality. That means that the way people have been conditioned to interact with websites, like with Facebook no longer applies. It's no longer just on your phone, it's in a headset. There's a whole new set of like UX rules that you need to learn because then your UX is not flat, it's 360 degrees. The way you lay out things is inevitably different. You can't put things too high or too low since a user might feel dizzy raising or lowering their heads. They are more sensitive to elements being too small or large, too bright or dim while wearing a headset. The UX is changing because of the different mediums. So in that sense, it has changed a lot."

Gathering from your words earlier, it seems like the cutting edge of UI/UX can only exist on radically new mediums. How do you view the evolution of design within our current web?

     

"There is space within the current paradigm for change; there's new design trends every year. This year we had glass morphism and mesh gradients. Two years ago we had skeuomorphism. Stylistic choices within the fringes of design on more artsy websites slowly infiltrate and become mainstream. I feel that's what's going to keep happening- there won't necessarily be like a UX change but a UI change. The evolution of aesthetics is always inevitable. I do think the web is inevitably going to get more scientific. I think that is just what inevitably happens, but I don't think that will inhibit UX entirely. Needs will change; the web is changing itself."

And why do you say that? How does UX change as we funnel artistry into science?

"I'm not the biggest proponent of web three , but do you know what it is?"

No, do tell!

     "There's different stages of what the internet has been and what it will be from. From its inception in the 90s to the present day, the net has changed a lot. And, to some extent, the purpose of the net has changed as well. There's this new movement to really change the way the web is shaped. Yeah, supporters of web three do see the web in its current form to be mature and they don't like the direction it's been going. People don't want our data to be controlled by monopolies. They want to deviate from that by proposing a new form so that maybe our web experience doesn't have to be at the hands of all these big browser companies. What if this was all decentralized?"

     "I don't know if this is the way things will go. I'm not like supporting or like not supporting either side for sure. But that the web in its current form, while mature, will inevitably change because it is still only, what, 30 years old?"

33 to be exact. (Thanks Laurel, read it on the syllabus)

     "Exactly. If people want to deconstruct the net and make alternatives, that would also shape the UX around it. Maybe we would no longer ask for emails for account identification, maybe we no longer ask for data at all. Maybe we'd perform different forms of authentication. There's a whole different set of interactions that arise from an alternate net. "

You mentioned VR and web three as examples of instigators of change. One seems to be a shift in medium whereas the other is an entire change in infrastructure. What, to you, differentiates the evolution of UX between the two?

     "I don't know. I feel like the medium is the one that is definitely more drastic in the short term because that's a whole different interface. I think the systems, however, are what take a longer time, but will make a bigger difference too."

Thats about where our conversation ended, Thank You Connie Liu!